Close Call?
“I am very shaken right now and need to share what just happened to me.” That was the first sentence in a lengthy email sent to me over Father’s Day weekend.
The woman and her boyfried were walking their dog on the wooded paths around Lake Minnetonka in Minnesota. On a hot summer evening, Lake Minnetonka is teeming with people walking, running, boating and drinking. It was late and the woman was near several hot party spots. “Just then,” she says, “a dark blue big van pulled up on the road and stopped. The man driving had the lights on in the van and he seemed to be typing or searching on a police like radio. My boyfriend and I were scared so we began to run up the path. A young man between the ages of 21-28 came walking past us. He was alone and looked a little afraid. We continued to walk down the path and about one minute later the boy came running from behind us. He stopped when he got to us. I asked him if he was okay. He said that he wasn’t okay and that he was afraid. He said it was a terrible night and that he couldn’t even begin to talk about it. He said that he was sorry because he was messed up. He didn’t seem messed up though to us.”
The young man walked away from the water and towards the street. The woman and her boyfriend searched for the young man, but couldn’t find him. They got in their car to drive home and spotted a police cruiser. She says that they flashed their lights at the car, but the officer didn’t pull over. Instead, the cruiser sped away from the busy area and into a more deserted neighborhood. The woman and her boyfriend turned away and called police. She says the dispatcher took her information.
The woman says, “I am scared. I know that the boy was running away from the van. It is like the van knew that he would be walking down the path and was waiting for him. We tried to alert a cop and he speed away from us. Whoever was in the van must have been in contact with people at the bar and in the area and I know it sounds crazy but a cop too… I am afraid for the safety of the boy. I wish I would have told him to come with me but he looked terrified and he could have been dangerous. Please get this information to the investigators or whoever you think would benefit from it.”
To verify the details, I asked the woman to get her police report or a record of her call to police. She says the police department does not have any record of report. The woman’s phone has a record of the call and the duration of it.
The woman is now on a mission to spread the story of SFK and is encouraging people to read about it and take precautions.
DandyID
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Many of us asked ( I know I did) about the two victims found at the Abbey. Foot Prints didn’t have any information about this and I had just come over to SFK from there. No one could provide a link about this yet ANON kept stating it over and over. We kept asking where this information came from. Where is it other than on this blog???
Then Jan Jenkins posted about the entire event at the Abbey. She explained to all of us what had happened. She explained she was upset because they said the dogs were “led” and questioned how any dog could have a political agenda. She then went on to say something to the effect that missing animals are treated better than missing males. Maybe Kristi still has her post. This is where the entire “dog was led” entered this blog, by Jan Jenkins herself.I remember wondering how a handler would lead a dog along a scent trail.
So, if the 2 scents are in fact still being considered as physical evidence by police or anywhere outside of the blogs could you provide a link or something. Many new people thought it was rumor until Jan Jenkins spoke on it. She was the one who said it wasn’t considered credible by them (who ever they are) and is understandably frustrated.I was under the impression the dogs found both victim’s scent at the Abbey but this evidence wasn’t being used because Jan Jenkins said the dogs were led.
Mark Ferguson ruined the entire trial with OJ by planting blood. When the defense tested the blood they found EDTA in it (found in blood tubes as a preservative). How could anyone believe any other physical evidence when you have a guy planting the evidence. So OJ got off.
If people don’t believe where I live all the better. In hindsight probably not a good idea to reveal this however when I first came here I talked about the search for Dan. I thought this site would have similiar posters as Foot Prints but have found this is not the case.
Also, very significant is the exact location the victims go missing from. The geography is very telling. If you would like to start doing this I would be happy to add information. I would much rather do this than argue.
I can add an exact location column to the spreadsheet if you like. Do we know the exact locations for most of them? I am adding notations to each record of importance- like if they made a phone call and didn’t say anything, where clothes were found, etc.
@jbrown
I would love a copy of the spreadsheet. I was using google maps to look at the areas that some of the victims disappeared from and noticed a couple of interesting things about the areas. I have also been looking at other things on the internet about the area from where the victims went missing. But it has been very slow as I don’t have a lot of time and have to put information together from a lot of different sources.
@monique777
If the police said they are not using the information that dogs tracked 2 victims to the abby, because someone in LE claims that the dogs were led, that is no reason for us at this blog to stop posting about it. Perhaps LE just has not yet revealed how they intend to use the information about the dogs tracking the victims to the abbey. There is all kinds of information that might not be admissable in a court of law (like lie detector tests), but the police regularly use that information in conducting their investigations, because the police find it reliable.
The info about the dogs & the abbey should not be buried. That is all that I have been saying. Maybe its true & accurate & maybe its not, like so many other theories on this & every other blog.
Law enforcement chooses to ignore alot of evidence. That doesn’t make it right.
That is the whole purpose of this blog ———– questioning the evidence that LE has either missed or chosen to ignore.
@AV
I know what you mean. There are a few of us working together on this and it is taking forever and is so time consuming. But it is also very interesting. Our google map and is getting too crowded with the pins.But what is in the area where all the victims go missing is really interesting!
@jbrown
May I also have a spread sheet. I know many of the locations the victims were last seen (but they could have gone some where else afterwards.) Foot Prints has information on many of the victims and has links provided for any additional information. Lisa, the site owner is very exact with her facts and won’t post anything with out a link so the facts are accurate. The comments section there also adds additionl facts from readers. I will ask if we can use this information for a spread sheet. Kristi (this site owner) or Lisa may even give us a link to work on this. Let me know how you want to approach this before I ask.
@jbrown
I have bar names (and addresses) and party addresses for each of the victims on our list. The victim list doesn’t match the SFK list or Foot Prints list exactly but pretty close.
Kristi has offered a page if anyone would like to work on it.I think this is a really great offer. And if you would like to select certain people you can do that and have them enter a password. What do you think?
@monique777
that sounds great! maybe a page where everyone can look at, but only a few can modify. I think if everyone can see a list with all the possible victim info, more ideas about possible connections or patterns can emerge.
@monique @jbrown
That sounds like a great idea.
@monique777
Yes the geography of where they go missing is very interesting. I’ve been working on a couple of things when I can, about which victims were “pre-chosen” and which ones were at the wrong place at the wrong time. And from there looking at the places they disappeared from. I would love to compare notes with you sometime, but I don’t want to post my theory on here yet, because I haven’t gone through enough and I have one that doesn’t quite fit.
@jbrown
I agree. If you would like to put your spread sheet up on a page let Kristi (site owner) know. As I said she offered a page for this. Then you can choose who can edit the page. It would be great to have information in one place.
@AV
Sounds very interesting. I haven’t looked at who was prechosen vs. random from the geography before but I’m thinking there may be a copy cat out there.
I am rather certain that some people who are asking to be in on compiling & EDITTING the spread sheet have the hidden agenda of trying to debunk certain theories & steer the evidence to create doubt about certain theories &/or suspects.
Be careful, or all your hard work will be craftily undermined by those who are most likely really working for or really are the killers.
I was just over at godlike productions, trane thread, & there is some really good evidence & theories that has just been posted in the last couple of days, on pages 94-95, which really sheds alot of light on how some of these cases are related to one another.
Everyone should definitely look at this stuff.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg94
Yes, very true – I guess “they” (perps) are getting worried.
Jake – I was responding to your post #46
The only agenda we have is to figure out who is murdering young men. That is it. We can’t get upset, paranoid, bicker and put people down. That is counterproductive to what we want to do and will turn people away. We need as many resources as we can get. I looked at the stuff on godlike productions. It is the same person (anonomous coward) who writes pages and pages of the same thing. Yes, we know that Guimond and Jenkins’ scents were found at the Abby. Yes, it could be connected to some of the disappearances. Yes, what priests have done and some may still be doing to children is horrible (and the same things go for parents and relatives of children). Code of silence within the Abby? Probably. Maybe somone should stake out the monastery where the priests live (especially on the weekends)? I nominate Jake since that is the theory he is zeroing in on. We should try not to get completely involved with one theory, because we may miss clues to a different theory. What if there are different perpetrators? What if the victims that were found in their car in a lake/river were killed by someone, what if the victims that are still missing were killed by someone else and what if the victims that were found in rivers and lakes were killed by yet a third party? We really need to explore many different avenues. Putting all the info in one place is just gathering data. We need to gather data before we explore possible theories. You know the scientific rule- hypothesis (someone is killing young men), gather data (trying to build on each of the victims), theory, conclusion. Maybe we will never get to a conclusion for all of the victims, but we can at least try.
Maybe the person/people editing the data spreadsheet can have a place where other people can submit suggestions to change/modify/add data. I really like how “Footprints” has news stories about each victim, but I think maybe we should stick with data. Kristi and the detective can add/take away from the victim name list. They are working with specific criteria. They are doing this to help the families. That is what I want to do also. Monique, I can send you my spreadsheet if you like. We can compare notes.
Well, my point is – we should not arm the suscpects with info or questions, because they could prepare themselves…
This is a murder investigation. Any person who posts on this blog may not be who they are portraying themselves to be. In fact, the ones who, in passing mention things about their own supposed personal life — like “I just came back from Paris” or “I’m off to go shopping or go here or there” seem like they are perhaps going out of their way to humanize & personalize their blogger-identity (so as to make themselves appear more likeable & credible). You’ll notice most bloggers don’t talk about aspects of their own personal life, since this is not social website like myspace.com.
I just think anyone reading this website should be very careful about who they give information to. Sharing information with the wrong person might actually undermine any real investigation, or at the very least, some bad people will simply try to debunk whatever information you put forth (unless they know that that information is really way off track —– then they will encourage you to pursue that theory forever & ever, because they want you to waste your time).
It’s odd that some people are trying to label the discussion as “bickering.” It’s true that every time I or someone else post certain things, I am attacked by ZorrosPal, & Monique (& sometimes also a couple of others, who may actually be aliases for ZP & Monique). If they attack either certain specific theories, or criticize the naming of certain groups as possible suspects, or attack or criticize the blogger who posts about those things, then their motives ARE HIGHLY SUSPECT, & it is good & correct to point that out.
Now that I think about it, I guess when some people’s motives are called into question, they do start “bickering.” But you know, when they start bickering like that, I think it tells all of us even more about their real agendas.
I guess we could all supply our information to Kristi in the form of our own spreadsheets & she could post those spreadsheets with the LARGE NOTATION that this info needs to be checked out & verified for accuracy. It could then be verified by all of us over time.
However, there is still the problem, that the honest bloggers may be essentially turning over all their hard work to the enemy (the dishonest bloggers/killers, who are probably also reading & posting here).
Let’s say that Monique posts her spreadsheet regarding the geography of the murders, that she says she has been working on. If we assume that Monique is an honest blogger, who is really trying to catch the real killers, that information could be easily used by the real killers to simply plan the next murders in some different geographical area that is not keeping with any earlier pattern. Thus, the killer strikes again, gets away with it, & it appears that all of Monique’s hard work was really way off base, when maybe it wasn’t off base at all.
I still think we should all be suspicious of anyone on this blog who basically says, “tell me all your information, that you have spent tons of time developing, & give it to me in spread sheet format”. It seems like the blogger who tries to get at all that info might be the real killer. I don’t know how we get past that. But I think we have to be careful. Better to be safe than sorry — that you shared all your hard work with the killers.
@harry
Jake… I dont who you are but once again your at it – that what I was trying to say….
@jbrown
You say that you looked at the stuff at godlike productions, page 94-95, & its just more of the same. I don’t think thats an accurate assessment ——- so I’m wondering if maybe your just bored with certain theories (that is your perogative) or you really just kind of skimmed the information without really reading it, or maybe you purposely don’t want others to take the time to go over there & check it out. I really don’t know why you would say that.
Anyways, I encourage all the readers here to go over to godlike productions, the trane thread & check out pages 94-95. Sure — some information may be things that some people have already heard, but much of it are things that have not been discussed here on this site (at least not anytime recently that I can remember). Much of that information seems rather new & quite enlightening & persuasive.
Go see for yourselves.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg94
& then you can all make your own decisions about why jbrown is steering you away from reading it.
@Jake
There´s some good information of some posters over there – but I would advice people to stay away from that site – not a good place to be. Trust me.
2 words – “information gathering/mining”
Oh by the way, the blogger over here, named jbrown, says that the blogger “Anonymous Coward” is doing all the posting over at Godlike Productions, & jbrown might goes on to claim that we have all heard everything from him before, so we can just ignore him now —- but that is simply not true.
Over at GL Productions, anyone can post using the screen name “Anonymous Coward” & when you scroll back over all the posts for several days, you will see that different User ID numbers (which I think maybe are randomly assigned by the program) appear right under each screen name. So one name, like Anonymous Coward , could really be several different people.
I also think that some debunkers have signed on over at GLProductions, disguising themselves as Anonymous Coward & have posted all types of things, as a way to discredit all those posts. I think many people who have read GLProductions may not have realized that anyone can post using any screen name, even one that someone else regularly uses. Alot of readers may not have really noticed the different User ID numbers, &/or they may not have had the time or energy to keep track of them all. And I think maybe the same poster gets randomly assigned a different ID number every 24 hours, but I am not totally sure if that is how their software works.
Anyways — much of the info in the last couple of days, page 94-95 seems new & fresh, enlightening & interesting.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg94
jbrown said “We need to gather data before we explore possible theories.” BUT that is not really correct. The scientific way of investigating anything is usually to first come up with a possible theory & then gather data & see if the data either tends to make the theory either more or less likely. If you gather enough really good data, it can conclusively prove the theory, or it could completely rule it out.
Of course objective data should be given far more weight than subjective data. In other words, someone’s opinion as to what happened (by itself) might not be given much weight at all. It is best to have facts to back things up, obviously. Simply gathering data without linking it to some theory can sometimes be a waste of everyone’s time ————- but jbrown probably already knows that.
That would be like “busy-work”. It might, at first, make some bloggers feel like they are accomplishing something, because they are busy doing stuff. However, the best way to move toward any goal is to,first, have an idea of what that goal is. The goal should be more specific than simply gathering a bunch of data.
@harry
Harry, I agree with you — this is the best site to discuss things on. There could be debunkers on any site.
But I don’t rule out gathering information from any site. No matter where I see information, I take everything with a big grain of salt. After all, this is a murder investigation, & I don’t know who any of these bloggers really are.
It’s kind of interesting to me that people like ZP & Monique have not had anything to say about me directing readers to the 2 pages on GLProductions (that I think have alot of new info,pages 94-95) http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg94
I wonder if they are simply trying to ignore it. Oh yeah, I almost forgot —- they had jbrown attack & try to debunk it (I had kind of wondered if jbrown was really an alias for one of them). I guess ZP & Monique might have several different aliases try to debunk & attack that info, like they have done before —- in almost like a BLITZ. They are pretty good at that , and that technique of theirs has maybe fooled some of the readers of this blog, but it didn’t fool me.
You see, debunking is debunking. If someone tries to debunk (sometimes attacking in quite a hostile way), it really just makes that debunker look suspicious. Even when they debunk very subtley, through innuendo & by implying certain things or just planting seeds of doubt, it might not initially be obvious what they up to, but their patterns betray them as debunkers, and cast suspicion on them as the possibly the real killers.
u really sound paranoid Jake. no one wants to blog with paranoid people who rant. no, i am not an alias for someone else. u r really getting tiresome.
@jbrown
No, he´s just rational.
@Jake
jake said:
But I don’t rule out gathering information from any site. No matter where I see information, I take everything with a big grain of salt. After all, this is a murder investigation, & I don’t know who any of these bloggers really are.
I agree – you are right…
Jake really knows how things work on forums/blogs.
I really like your idea but I think you should be “in charge” of your spreadsheet. Kristi said you can have passwords for editing functions. Or a password to enter to the spreadsheet? You’ll have to talk to Kristi (site owner). She is very kind to offer this. I don’t know of any other site where there is all of the data in one place that can be easily viewed. It might be very telling.
Anything can’t hurt at this point. The killings started in the mid 90s and it is now 2009 and unless the FBI or some investigating agency has seriously looked at this and has not blown it off as it has been stated, we aren’t really any closer to catching these killers.
BUT, don’t loose hope! There are many people researching this and I think would be willing to share a little of their research on a spread sheet. It may also lead to new research.
Jake should really stop personally attacking ZP.
all the data on this spreadsheet can be easily accessed by the web and other sfk sites. it isn’t like we are posting new info. I don’t want to give the killer information if he really is reading this stuff, but I would rather have others look at it and see how many people/families this has affected and possibly get ideas into who is doing it and why.
I really like your idea that someone is inside the bar (probably patron) getting into arguments with some of the victims so they get kicked out. Does that mean they are working with someone else who is outside the bar?
@jbrown
It is some people’s theory I have read on here(so it is not something I came up with on my own and am trying to take credit for), that someone inside the bar may be drugging these men and then instigating fights with them to get them tossed out of the bar. The theme with some of these victims is they were tossed out of a bar. This leaves a drugged male alone. This sure makes for an easy victim. It seems a reasonable possibility to me.
@jbrown
I think the best thing to do is to completely ignore Jake and possibly Harry. I think people acknowledging his comments, or replying to them further fuels his rants.
good idea AV
ZP has allready discreditedhimself – And I for sure will keep an eye
on you.!!!
@jbrown
If only facts are posted on the spreadsheet it can’t aide the killers at all. They know already what they have done so the facts will not be new information to them. You had expressed concern about helping the killers by having the spreadsheet but I’m not sure how if facts are posted.
Thank you Harry. You are very insightful.
As I indicated earlier, even facts can be used by the killers to delude the police & confuse things.
Let’s say that Monique posts her spreadsheet regarding the geography of the murders, that she says she has been working on. If we assume that Monique is an honest blogger, who is really trying to catch the real killers, that information could be easily used by the real killers to simply plan the next murders in some different geographical area that is not keeping with any earlier pattern. Thus, the killer strikes again, gets away with it, & it appears that all of Monique’s hard work was really way off base, when maybe it wasn’t off base at all.
@jbrown
Maybe Kristi can have a “private” page for posters to the spreadsheet. I don’t know. I really like the idea have having all our data together in one place but I think someone else should figure out how to do it safely. Maybe you could ask Kristi’s advice? She would know. At any rate, if it is done in a safe manner I will add to it.Just let me know where or when if you include me.
Maybe Krisi can have a page that gives instructions & suggestions to families & friends of young men who suddenly are missing. This page should not be something any blogger can change. The families are at a loss when their loved one suddenly disappears, & they are not familiar with the patterns & how the police follow protocol & tend to conclude everything is just an accident. Families should be made aware instantly that they need to push for thorough toxicology screens before the body is embalmed in buried. They all need to be informed to not blame one another, but instead to work together to push authorities to be thorough so the killer can be found.
I can contact Kristi to see if she thinks it is appropriate. She is probably going to have to discuss the content with others. Especially if we post possible victim names.
It will be most helpful for the families & friens of victims (future & past), if there was a page (which could not be changed by just anyone), which spells out what family & friends should do when their loved one goes missing. The strongest advocate for any victime is his family & friends. The police will have to listen to them, if they approach things in a clear consistent manner. Families are so distraught at that time, it is difficult to do much more than to simply trust that the police will do everything perfectly. I could certainly contact Kristi directly about this idea via email or whatever, but I just figured I’d post my idea here for everyone to see. That’s the purpose of the blog.
@jbrown
Sounds like a good plan. After you contact her about your spreadsheet, let us know what Kristi thinks is appropriate. She is the expert who can best guide you.